It’s kinda funny how guys tout the truism that ‘men and women are different’ in so many conversations about gender. But, when women demonstrate that difference in perception of bodies, they conclude that we must be lying. 😂
William Costello’s question was “Do you THINK he looks better before or after?”
He didn’t ask which photo looked ‘objectionably’ (objectively?) better. The resistance to different perceptions is something that is very difficult for me to understand about these guys. They can understand our differences in every other context.
i really enjoy these grouping of selected studies to try to provoke some thought about culture and evolutionary psychobiology. but the studies use relatively small study sizes and the details that might weaken inferences based on a study are not described.
There’s little to no resistance. I know very few men who don’t accept that people have different preferences. If anything, I hear more pushback from women who get upset that a man might have a type.
Every guy who lifts enough to have a noticeably fit body knows that you get way more attention from other men about how your body looks than from women.
I suspect that for men, muscularity is similar to fashionable clothing for women.
Other men are much more appreciative of a muscular physique; whereas for women, we're just like "ok, yeah, looks nice..."
Along those lines, women dress fashionably for other women; but men are usually a bit baffled by fashion and only appreciate it insofar as it highlights parts of female anatomy. My male friends are all lamenting the fact that loose jeans are now in style, but they are somewhat consoled by the fashion for crop tops. However, among women, the ability to pull off a new fashion (which often are rather unflattering for the majority of female bodies) is a highly-coveted skill and is greatly admired.
Couldn't agree more. As a man, I couldn't think less of fashion, and I somewhat look down on people who change their fashion style based on current trends. But I know there are people out there who look down on me for how much time and care I put into the gym and my physique.
Am I the only one who thinks the before looks more athletic? Looks faster and stronger, like a former college football player or something. The after looks dehydrated. Seems very obvious to me.
These are interesting theories, but as a woman who has only ever wanted men for sex versus love, I think there's a straight up honest difference in preference happening. He looks better in the first pic. He looks like a weird plastic GI Joe doll in the second. Or insect-like.
Even if women like more muscular men for hookups then for marriage, they aren't going for that degree of muscular.
Great article. Due to a medical condition, doctors have always advised me not to lift weights. I've sometimes felt a little estranged from the Club of Men because of it. Yet biology is inescapable.
Moving furniture or boxes with my very fit wife, my strength is almost comically superior to hers. No fitness routine. No sweaty gym clothes. No hours spent lifting to the sound of heavy metal. I just roll off the couch, walk over to "immovable" bookshelf, IKEA box, or pickle jar, and exert my will over it.
[I know I sound vain, but cut me some slack, I wasn't even allowed in high school gym class. So, it's the one place I get to enjoy my masculine muscle advantage.🙂]
I think there is a parallel with male view of female attractiveness. I find a mid/average female to be way more attractive personally than some Kardashian-esque big boob and booty woman who is perfect. It's not just intimidating (although it is), but it's just too much. My wife says this about men who are extremely muscular, it's too much. The cues for health and attractiveness need to be there, but life is about balance.
Is there any indication of how this plays out on dating apps? I’m consistently surprised about how difficult it is for my clients and even myself to match with attractive women, and one of my thoughts has been: do we need shirtless photos? To this point I’ve advised against it, but if women don’t care about guys in peak fitness, it’s odd that more “normal” guys experience such a dearth of options.
This sounded astronomically crazy 'the average man is stronger than 99.9% of women' Seems it was 'Studies on grip strength, upper body strength, lower body strength, and muscle mass distribution show that the average man is stronger than about 90–95% of women, depending on the measure, not 99.9%.'
Reminds me of how “attracted to” and “would want to be in a relationship with” have some overlap but not completely.
Can’t find it but was there not a study in which a man wearing a polo shirt with a regular sized polo player (or was it a number) on it (over the heart) was attractive for long term but the same man wearing a polo shirt with an oversized polo player (or number) in the same spot was more attractive for a short term fling?
It’s kinda funny how guys tout the truism that ‘men and women are different’ in so many conversations about gender. But, when women demonstrate that difference in perception of bodies, they conclude that we must be lying. 😂
Preference is a different question from which body looks objectionably better.
William Costello’s question was “Do you THINK he looks better before or after?”
He didn’t ask which photo looked ‘objectionably’ (objectively?) better. The resistance to different perceptions is something that is very difficult for me to understand about these guys. They can understand our differences in every other context.
i really enjoy these grouping of selected studies to try to provoke some thought about culture and evolutionary psychobiology. but the studies use relatively small study sizes and the details that might weaken inferences based on a study are not described.
There’s little to no resistance. I know very few men who don’t accept that people have different preferences. If anything, I hear more pushback from women who get upset that a man might have a type.
I’m referring to the men in that Twitter thread - it’s cropped in the photo at the top of the essay.
Every guy who lifts enough to have a noticeably fit body knows that you get way more attention from other men about how your body looks than from women.
I suspect that for men, muscularity is similar to fashionable clothing for women.
Other men are much more appreciative of a muscular physique; whereas for women, we're just like "ok, yeah, looks nice..."
Along those lines, women dress fashionably for other women; but men are usually a bit baffled by fashion and only appreciate it insofar as it highlights parts of female anatomy. My male friends are all lamenting the fact that loose jeans are now in style, but they are somewhat consoled by the fashion for crop tops. However, among women, the ability to pull off a new fashion (which often are rather unflattering for the majority of female bodies) is a highly-coveted skill and is greatly admired.
Couldn't agree more. As a man, I couldn't think less of fashion, and I somewhat look down on people who change their fashion style based on current trends. But I know there are people out there who look down on me for how much time and care I put into the gym and my physique.
Am I the only one who thinks the before looks more athletic? Looks faster and stronger, like a former college football player or something. The after looks dehydrated. Seems very obvious to me.
These are interesting theories, but as a woman who has only ever wanted men for sex versus love, I think there's a straight up honest difference in preference happening. He looks better in the first pic. He looks like a weird plastic GI Joe doll in the second. Or insect-like.
Even if women like more muscular men for hookups then for marriage, they aren't going for that degree of muscular.
Completely agree!
There are similarly things women do that impress other women more than they impress men. I'll venture that eyebrow grooming is one such thing.
Great article. Due to a medical condition, doctors have always advised me not to lift weights. I've sometimes felt a little estranged from the Club of Men because of it. Yet biology is inescapable.
Moving furniture or boxes with my very fit wife, my strength is almost comically superior to hers. No fitness routine. No sweaty gym clothes. No hours spent lifting to the sound of heavy metal. I just roll off the couch, walk over to "immovable" bookshelf, IKEA box, or pickle jar, and exert my will over it.
[I know I sound vain, but cut me some slack, I wasn't even allowed in high school gym class. So, it's the one place I get to enjoy my masculine muscle advantage.🙂]
I think there is a parallel with male view of female attractiveness. I find a mid/average female to be way more attractive personally than some Kardashian-esque big boob and booty woman who is perfect. It's not just intimidating (although it is), but it's just too much. My wife says this about men who are extremely muscular, it's too much. The cues for health and attractiveness need to be there, but life is about balance.
Is it possible this is a stated vs revealed preference? As in women say they like guys who aren’t super fit, but that’s not who they choose?
Is there any indication of how this plays out on dating apps? I’m consistently surprised about how difficult it is for my clients and even myself to match with attractive women, and one of my thoughts has been: do we need shirtless photos? To this point I’ve advised against it, but if women don’t care about guys in peak fitness, it’s odd that more “normal” guys experience such a dearth of options.
Can you write something like this on how men perceive women’s bodies?
Maybe. But men are simpler so the article wouldn't be as interesting.
No interesting Easter Eggs to be found…just youth and beauty?
An alternate perspective here - https://www.cheirophilus.com/p/on-before-and-after-gym-transformations
This sounded astronomically crazy 'the average man is stronger than 99.9% of women' Seems it was 'Studies on grip strength, upper body strength, lower body strength, and muscle mass distribution show that the average man is stronger than about 90–95% of women, depending on the measure, not 99.9%.'
My preferred type is Toned. It makes me think the guy cares about his fitness, but isn't obsessed with it.
Reminds me of how “attracted to” and “would want to be in a relationship with” have some overlap but not completely.
Can’t find it but was there not a study in which a man wearing a polo shirt with a regular sized polo player (or was it a number) on it (over the heart) was attractive for long term but the same man wearing a polo shirt with an oversized polo player (or number) in the same spot was more attractive for a short term fling?
Thanks, interesting points. I may just have to rethink my decision of unsubscribing to your newsletter. :-)