"The cost of looking committed" - Ironically, the most expensive weddings that I have attended have a 0% success rate, at this point in my life. The relatively inexpensive ones probably have around a 70% success rate. Not sure what to make of that.
I don't find this explanation that compelling. There is no doubt an element of keeping up with the Joneses and signalling intent, but I'd argue that much of it is downstream of individualism expressed through purchases. People expect to put their stamp on things, and there's a mature market in many countries to do this through weddings.
Re: "...downstream of individualism expressed through purchases" reads like a line from an advertising campaign pitch. At first, it seems to say something, but upon examination it's meaningless.
It's not my best work. I've had a few friends get married and their spending seems more about personalising their wedding than convincing people they are committed. Mostly they've been together for five to ten years – nobody needs much convincing!
Jimmy, individualism expressed through purchases makes sense. Otherwise there wouldn’t be 5k brands of cologne, eau de toilette, etc. People like to “choose their frangrance”.
It’s more like the illusion of individualism because other couples all buy the same venues and copy ideas except at the multi-millionaire / billionaire level.
I agree that this is too narrow lens and think Rob is projecting his lens (which is useful for a lot of things by the way) instead of backing this with data or studies. However, it’s still an interesting opinion piece.
I completely disagree. I've been married twice, and both times were very "individual" without spending a lot of money.
1985 - Monday 12.00 pm Bride, groom, 2 witnesses, Catholic priest, followed by lunch then supermarket shopping. I did buy a new dress, which was worn many times afterwards. No engagement ring, sterling silver wedding ring. No honeymoon. It lasted 27 years.
2013 - Friday 12.00 p.m. Bride, groom, 6 adult & 2 child relatives, registrar, followed by BBQ. I wore my then-current "best" dress, which is still in my wardrobe, and worn for special occasions. Vintage 9ct gold & sapphire engagement ring, 9ct gold wedding ring. As a migrant I'd gone back to my home country to be married, so there was a week before and a week after holiday catching up with family and friends. Lasted 12 years so far and still going strong.
Both times it was about the commitment. The marriage was what was important, not the wedding.
But then although I drive a high quality German car, it's a 2009 model. It does the job. My phone is a 5 year old Android, that also does the job. And like Rob, I'm working class originally, got an education and became socially mobile, so I get what he's talking about. Individuality doesn't have to equal spending lots of money, unless it's a signal to prove your class status.
Hi Pam, never said you have to spend money to express individualism. You’ve clearly found a way to do that while making different choices with your own values in mind. Agree with your point that spending lots of money, especially exorbitant amounts, can and usually is a class signal. It also says nothing about the “quality of the relationship or marriage” to both your and Rob’s point.
However, having an expensive wedding doesn’t mean that wedding isn’t the “rich person’s attempt at individual expression.” For them, they likely feel they are “expressing themselves” - whatever that means. My point was individual expression can come in lots of different ways, including purchases if that’s your preferred method. All your purchases, regardless their value or purchase price, I think represent your preferences & choices (i.e. an expression). That’s my main point.
You can disagree, but that’s my view.
Sounds like you’ve built a good marriage and life :) I’m approaching 4 years with my wife this year. 7 total together.
I think what you've identified is a problem with individualism as a concept. Most of what we like is really just copied from others, generally those we admire in some way. There are minor variations and adjustments at the fringes, but it's always a small group experimenting – most people don't care enough. And perhaps to concede something to Rob, much of it is about fitting in, much moreso than standing out, which makes sense in evolutionary terms.
Correct. In other countries, all what happens here is an example. We are the model in good, or bad, for the world. This country is good at "inventing the need that does not exist." Then, the subliminal seduction follows to implement the desire...
I heard on the 'business wars' podcast that the 'diamond ring' custom in the US was largely created by advertisers working for DeBeers, who formerly controlled diamond supply. It was then successfully exported to Japan. That said, lavish weddings are not a US invention and have been around for centuries (perhaps millennia?) among elites in many parts of the world.
My husband and I were married in 1975. We celebrated our 50th anniversary this month. Fifty people attended our small church wedding. We paid for the wedding ourselves: a simple wedding dress (and veil made by a friend), tuxedo for the groom, and flowers. Volunteer friends helped with the decorations and served cake and punch at the reception. Along with our parents, we had one best man and a maid of honor. Everyone seemed happy for us. Our love is stronger than the day we married.
Many more years! We had our 50th anniversary in May too. It was a decent, simple ceremony, with a bunch of people we like, and a catering. It was more of a thanksgiving session for being alive and being able to withstand many adversities. also, no expensive jewelry. My wife was reading the advices on the web, that would make us to do an extravagant show.
Spending on the wedding and ring is inversely associated with marriage duration so it isn’t a very accurate signal. I suspect it has more to do with women on Pinterest and Instagram plus easy credit.
The permanence these events have on our psyches now because of social media also exacerbates the problem. The aesthetic of the wedding will live on for all to see for years, unlike those of us who were married pre-social media and had our memories confined to a physical photo book.
I think there is utility in bringing together family and friends in celebration of a marriage. It is a crucible in community support for the new couple. It certainly isn't necessary to spend lavishly, but I find a small ceremony somewhat depressing and seems to set the stage for the couple being more isolated and possibly lonely. I was married at age 22 and we just celebrated 43 years together. We still remember the wedding and the after-party...300 family and friends. It was expensive at the time, but our memories and those of all the people that attended have paid back many times.
I do think that the wedding industry has driven costs too high in some states. However, there are less expensive options available if the couple can put together a team of friends to help.
Correct. Unfortunately, as I wrote in my recent comments, the expensive wedding, paid by the bride's parents, is a lipstick on some underlying aspects in the family.
Buying status is a big part of the hugely costly wedding, but great reason/ excuse for a huge party is also a part of it. For many it’s still a Once in a Lifetime event, with all friends & family.
It would be good if there were more big anniversary parties at 10, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 years. More friend oriented than holiday family oriented. We had a big 30th anniversary party last year. For fun, not so much status. Also not so expensive, but we’re not pretending to be rich, either.
On a practical note, in many societies since the dawn of time, the parents of the bride pay the hefty price of the wedding. They will become the victims of this industry that cares only for that specific day and nothing else. This sentiment-induced industry is not much different in nature than the funeral industry.
On the other hand, most of the cases, nowadays, are just a subtle signaling that, their daughter is an impeccable person, lovely kid, cute as a bunny, and that would make everyone to forget her history of having a row of boyfriends since the high school. No surprise that a divorce may happen. Some studies have shown that a young woman with more than four partners has less chances to have a long marriage.
That aspect, is at a far distance from the traditional societies, where the bride was supposed to be very young, a virgin, and the parents were helping the new couple to get established in the group. The wedding was a gathering where the whole village was involved, helping, and the dowry was the bonus of life.
Marriage is at its core a useful partnership, and the bulwark of western society until at the very latest the 1980s. The idea that it must be punctuated by bombast and spectacle to be worth anything is terribly misguided. That’s like worrying about a food’s presentation far more than it’s nutritional value, which is actually also common occurrence in the modern era.
Hmmm, I'd be curious whether there is any research demonstrating that the "signal" (relatively higher cost for a wedding party) is actually related to the "real attribute" (commitment). My *hunch* is that, as in most other behaviors (like thrumming one's chest as a display of potential aggression), Goodhart's Law would predict this kind of signaling to only be correlated with the underlying attribute in the short term, and over the longer term any real signal to decline, not maybe all the way to zero, but substantially so. People *want others to believe* that they are committed -- hence the signaling. It doesn't really reflect their actual commitment, which spouses can signal to one another privately in any way they want. If I do have the resources to "make (others) believe" in my willingness to commit, maybe signaling for the sake of communicating (status) is sufficient, regardless of my true underlying intention...?
Wait wait wait. Go back to just the “marriage itself” part. Still extraordinarily costly signaling my friend! One is willing to likely surrender half they have ever made (and saved) and half they will ever make in the future. Getting married is itself still a massively costly signaling, whether you wash dishes, as we all have at some point, or are Jeff Bezos. Actually even if you are Jeff Bezos you probably still have to wash dishes on command.
1985 - No engagement ring, sterling silver wedding ring, new navy & pink dress which was worn many more times afterwards. Bride, groom, two witnesses, Catholic priest present. Monday, 12.00 pm Monday, wedding, lunch, then supermarket shopping. Had a week's holiday a couple of months later. Lasted 27 years.
2013 -1930's vintage engagement ring, 9ct gold, sapphire, replaced the rhinestones with tiny diamonds from an existing dress ring, 9ct gold, blue & white dress I already owned as "best", also worn many more times, still in my wardrobe. Registry office, 6 members of my family, plus 2 kids present. Friday 12.00 pm. BBQ at the beachside cabin we were staying, a few more relatives turned up. The honeymoon was a week prior plus a few days after the wedding, due to logistics. Still going strong, and coming up for 12 years very happily.
Twenty six years ago I was in a friend’s $150,000 wedding. The wedding wasn’t even nice or well done; it was mostly a tacky mess. The bride and groom were both from new and big money. The marriage lasted 19 years. My friend found out her husband had been cheating on her for about ten of those years.
I learned from many cases that most of the time the blame is on the man but, most of the time there is an underlying aspect that led to such behavior. First of all, it is a subliminal seduction of each young generation to sexually test each other, like shoes, rather than being connected by real feelings. On the other hand, there is a collective thinking that boys and girls have to experience abundantly the life before the marriage. This way, the marriage has been for so long discredited like a forced bondage.
In this case, the bride was in her late 30s and the groom his mid 30s, and both had a short, bad marriage behind them. Both are very narcissistic and wanted a big wedding to stir envy in friends who had much smaller resources. Both are very self absorbed; not surprised they divorced.
Thank you for the reply! Here is a good example of an option not included in the article - the revenge marriage... That could be a costly proposition. Unfortunately this is the case of many weddings and it is so bad when few kids are in the middle of the rotten deal.
Two children, both in college now. The wife will not tell the children that their father cheated on her; she does not want them to hate him. They have no idea about his philandering and are unlikely to ever find out.
"The cost of looking committed" - Ironically, the most expensive weddings that I have attended have a 0% success rate, at this point in my life. The relatively inexpensive ones probably have around a 70% success rate. Not sure what to make of that.
Probably nothing.
I don't find this explanation that compelling. There is no doubt an element of keeping up with the Joneses and signalling intent, but I'd argue that much of it is downstream of individualism expressed through purchases. People expect to put their stamp on things, and there's a mature market in many countries to do this through weddings.
Re: "...downstream of individualism expressed through purchases" reads like a line from an advertising campaign pitch. At first, it seems to say something, but upon examination it's meaningless.
It's not my best work. I've had a few friends get married and their spending seems more about personalising their wedding than convincing people they are committed. Mostly they've been together for five to ten years – nobody needs much convincing!
Jimmy, individualism expressed through purchases makes sense. Otherwise there wouldn’t be 5k brands of cologne, eau de toilette, etc. People like to “choose their frangrance”.
It’s more like the illusion of individualism because other couples all buy the same venues and copy ideas except at the multi-millionaire / billionaire level.
I agree that this is too narrow lens and think Rob is projecting his lens (which is useful for a lot of things by the way) instead of backing this with data or studies. However, it’s still an interesting opinion piece.
I completely disagree. I've been married twice, and both times were very "individual" without spending a lot of money.
1985 - Monday 12.00 pm Bride, groom, 2 witnesses, Catholic priest, followed by lunch then supermarket shopping. I did buy a new dress, which was worn many times afterwards. No engagement ring, sterling silver wedding ring. No honeymoon. It lasted 27 years.
2013 - Friday 12.00 p.m. Bride, groom, 6 adult & 2 child relatives, registrar, followed by BBQ. I wore my then-current "best" dress, which is still in my wardrobe, and worn for special occasions. Vintage 9ct gold & sapphire engagement ring, 9ct gold wedding ring. As a migrant I'd gone back to my home country to be married, so there was a week before and a week after holiday catching up with family and friends. Lasted 12 years so far and still going strong.
Both times it was about the commitment. The marriage was what was important, not the wedding.
But then although I drive a high quality German car, it's a 2009 model. It does the job. My phone is a 5 year old Android, that also does the job. And like Rob, I'm working class originally, got an education and became socially mobile, so I get what he's talking about. Individuality doesn't have to equal spending lots of money, unless it's a signal to prove your class status.
Hi Pam, never said you have to spend money to express individualism. You’ve clearly found a way to do that while making different choices with your own values in mind. Agree with your point that spending lots of money, especially exorbitant amounts, can and usually is a class signal. It also says nothing about the “quality of the relationship or marriage” to both your and Rob’s point.
However, having an expensive wedding doesn’t mean that wedding isn’t the “rich person’s attempt at individual expression.” For them, they likely feel they are “expressing themselves” - whatever that means. My point was individual expression can come in lots of different ways, including purchases if that’s your preferred method. All your purchases, regardless their value or purchase price, I think represent your preferences & choices (i.e. an expression). That’s my main point.
You can disagree, but that’s my view.
Sounds like you’ve built a good marriage and life :) I’m approaching 4 years with my wife this year. 7 total together.
I think what you've identified is a problem with individualism as a concept. Most of what we like is really just copied from others, generally those we admire in some way. There are minor variations and adjustments at the fringes, but it's always a small group experimenting – most people don't care enough. And perhaps to concede something to Rob, much of it is about fitting in, much moreso than standing out, which makes sense in evolutionary terms.
Oh it's ALL about the "fitting in"!
Correct. In other countries, all what happens here is an example. We are the model in good, or bad, for the world. This country is good at "inventing the need that does not exist." Then, the subliminal seduction follows to implement the desire...
I heard on the 'business wars' podcast that the 'diamond ring' custom in the US was largely created by advertisers working for DeBeers, who formerly controlled diamond supply. It was then successfully exported to Japan. That said, lavish weddings are not a US invention and have been around for centuries (perhaps millennia?) among elites in many parts of the world.
My husband and I were married in 1975. We celebrated our 50th anniversary this month. Fifty people attended our small church wedding. We paid for the wedding ourselves: a simple wedding dress (and veil made by a friend), tuxedo for the groom, and flowers. Volunteer friends helped with the decorations and served cake and punch at the reception. Along with our parents, we had one best man and a maid of honor. Everyone seemed happy for us. Our love is stronger than the day we married.
Many more years! We had our 50th anniversary in May too. It was a decent, simple ceremony, with a bunch of people we like, and a catering. It was more of a thanksgiving session for being alive and being able to withstand many adversities. also, no expensive jewelry. My wife was reading the advices on the web, that would make us to do an extravagant show.
Congratulations to you and your wife!
Thank you!
Spending on the wedding and ring is inversely associated with marriage duration so it isn’t a very accurate signal. I suspect it has more to do with women on Pinterest and Instagram plus easy credit.
The permanence these events have on our psyches now because of social media also exacerbates the problem. The aesthetic of the wedding will live on for all to see for years, unlike those of us who were married pre-social media and had our memories confined to a physical photo book.
I think there is utility in bringing together family and friends in celebration of a marriage. It is a crucible in community support for the new couple. It certainly isn't necessary to spend lavishly, but I find a small ceremony somewhat depressing and seems to set the stage for the couple being more isolated and possibly lonely. I was married at age 22 and we just celebrated 43 years together. We still remember the wedding and the after-party...300 family and friends. It was expensive at the time, but our memories and those of all the people that attended have paid back many times.
I do think that the wedding industry has driven costs too high in some states. However, there are less expensive options available if the couple can put together a team of friends to help.
Correct. Unfortunately, as I wrote in my recent comments, the expensive wedding, paid by the bride's parents, is a lipstick on some underlying aspects in the family.
Buying status is a big part of the hugely costly wedding, but great reason/ excuse for a huge party is also a part of it. For many it’s still a Once in a Lifetime event, with all friends & family.
It would be good if there were more big anniversary parties at 10, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 years. More friend oriented than holiday family oriented. We had a big 30th anniversary party last year. For fun, not so much status. Also not so expensive, but we’re not pretending to be rich, either.
This all started with DeBeers and “three months’ salary “.
On a practical note, in many societies since the dawn of time, the parents of the bride pay the hefty price of the wedding. They will become the victims of this industry that cares only for that specific day and nothing else. This sentiment-induced industry is not much different in nature than the funeral industry.
On the other hand, most of the cases, nowadays, are just a subtle signaling that, their daughter is an impeccable person, lovely kid, cute as a bunny, and that would make everyone to forget her history of having a row of boyfriends since the high school. No surprise that a divorce may happen. Some studies have shown that a young woman with more than four partners has less chances to have a long marriage.
That aspect, is at a far distance from the traditional societies, where the bride was supposed to be very young, a virgin, and the parents were helping the new couple to get established in the group. The wedding was a gathering where the whole village was involved, helping, and the dowry was the bonus of life.
Marriage is at its core a useful partnership, and the bulwark of western society until at the very latest the 1980s. The idea that it must be punctuated by bombast and spectacle to be worth anything is terribly misguided. That’s like worrying about a food’s presentation far more than it’s nutritional value, which is actually also common occurrence in the modern era.
Hmmm, I'd be curious whether there is any research demonstrating that the "signal" (relatively higher cost for a wedding party) is actually related to the "real attribute" (commitment). My *hunch* is that, as in most other behaviors (like thrumming one's chest as a display of potential aggression), Goodhart's Law would predict this kind of signaling to only be correlated with the underlying attribute in the short term, and over the longer term any real signal to decline, not maybe all the way to zero, but substantially so. People *want others to believe* that they are committed -- hence the signaling. It doesn't really reflect their actual commitment, which spouses can signal to one another privately in any way they want. If I do have the resources to "make (others) believe" in my willingness to commit, maybe signaling for the sake of communicating (status) is sufficient, regardless of my true underlying intention...?
Wait wait wait. Go back to just the “marriage itself” part. Still extraordinarily costly signaling my friend! One is willing to likely surrender half they have ever made (and saved) and half they will ever make in the future. Getting married is itself still a massively costly signaling, whether you wash dishes, as we all have at some point, or are Jeff Bezos. Actually even if you are Jeff Bezos you probably still have to wash dishes on command.
Married twice.
1985 - No engagement ring, sterling silver wedding ring, new navy & pink dress which was worn many more times afterwards. Bride, groom, two witnesses, Catholic priest present. Monday, 12.00 pm Monday, wedding, lunch, then supermarket shopping. Had a week's holiday a couple of months later. Lasted 27 years.
2013 -1930's vintage engagement ring, 9ct gold, sapphire, replaced the rhinestones with tiny diamonds from an existing dress ring, 9ct gold, blue & white dress I already owned as "best", also worn many more times, still in my wardrobe. Registry office, 6 members of my family, plus 2 kids present. Friday 12.00 pm. BBQ at the beachside cabin we were staying, a few more relatives turned up. The honeymoon was a week prior plus a few days after the wedding, due to logistics. Still going strong, and coming up for 12 years very happily.
Twenty six years ago I was in a friend’s $150,000 wedding. The wedding wasn’t even nice or well done; it was mostly a tacky mess. The bride and groom were both from new and big money. The marriage lasted 19 years. My friend found out her husband had been cheating on her for about ten of those years.
I learned from many cases that most of the time the blame is on the man but, most of the time there is an underlying aspect that led to such behavior. First of all, it is a subliminal seduction of each young generation to sexually test each other, like shoes, rather than being connected by real feelings. On the other hand, there is a collective thinking that boys and girls have to experience abundantly the life before the marriage. This way, the marriage has been for so long discredited like a forced bondage.
In this case, the bride was in her late 30s and the groom his mid 30s, and both had a short, bad marriage behind them. Both are very narcissistic and wanted a big wedding to stir envy in friends who had much smaller resources. Both are very self absorbed; not surprised they divorced.
Thank you for the reply! Here is a good example of an option not included in the article - the revenge marriage... That could be a costly proposition. Unfortunately this is the case of many weddings and it is so bad when few kids are in the middle of the rotten deal.
Two children, both in college now. The wife will not tell the children that their father cheated on her; she does not want them to hate him. They have no idea about his philandering and are unlikely to ever find out.